Forum:Canada in Atlantis
I don't believe we've ever discussed this. I know I've never brought it up, though it did stand out for me last winter when I read the Atlantis short stories. In TSB, Helms makes mention of the "Dominion of Ontario" in discussion with La Strada. From the context of the comment and La Strada's response, it becomes clear that this Dominion is, like OTL Canada, a parliamentary democracy/constitutional monarchy that shares its monarch with the UK--Victoria in this case. Now when the Dominion of Canada was created in 1867, only two provinces were developed enough to have any real clout in interprovincial pissing matches: Ontario and Quebec. If the maps on the novel covers can be trusted, at least part of Quebec would appear to be on the Atlantean landmass, and at any rate different colonization patterns and a different Seven Years' War most likely conspired to preclude the formation of a Quebec as we know it, though we can say so little about Terranova with any degree of absolute certainty. I would guess that, in the absence of a Quebecois rival, Ontario so dominated the federation that the whole country took its name. :You are correct about the reference to "Canada Geese" in AiA. Audubon reflects on the various anatomical similarities between them and Honkers as can be seen in the first paragraph here: Honker. ML4E 20:31, June 21, 2011 (UTC) Seems straightforward enough, but there is reference in one of the stories--I don't remember which, though if I had to guess I'd say AiA, since it concerns birds--to "Canada geese." It might be an inconsistency, like when Helms mentions tobacco even though every other Atlantis story calls it pipeweed. If the comment was in AiA, it might be that the entity in question was reorganized/renamed in the intervening years, as happened in OTL, too. But I'm wondering if there might be a region within the Dominion of Ontario called Canada, or whether Ontario encompasses no more territory than the OTL province and Canada is something else altogether--whether Britain's Terranovan holdings never consolidated, in other words. This could make sense: Part of the reason for the first BNA was to prepare for the eventuality of a US invasion after the ACW showed that the US had the potential to dominate all of North America militarily. Terranova contains no comparable potential hegemon, so British colonists would feel no need to circle the wagons (unless maybe they wanted to try to dominate the continent themselves?), and Turtledove has a similar dynamic defeat Canadian confederation in DSA. Or maybe Canada is a province within the Dominion of Ontario: From 1841 to consolidation there was a Province of Canada (sometimes called "United Canada") which encompassed territory roughly conforming to the modern borders of Ontario and Quebec. Ironically, when this province lent its name to the whole country, it lost its application to the province. In 1841 it was created by consolidating two colonies known as Upper and Lower Canada. What would have been the territory of Upper Canada is bisected by the fictional fault line that HT used to separate Atlantis from Terranova, so it's easy to imagine that there was only ever Lower Canada, and if there's only the one it wouldn't have been given a name like "Lower Canada," but simply "Canada." Meanwhile there's another colony called Ontario, or perhaps just a region, which lends its name to the nation as a whole? I really don't know. Anyone care to speculate? Turtle Fan 19:57, June 20, 2011 (UTC) :I raised the matter earlier in the Talk:Ontario page. ::So you did, and not at all long ago. Sorry for overlooking it. Turtle Fan 04:51, June 21, 2011 (UTC) :I hadn't considered the inconsistency of "Canada" Geese with the Dominion of Ontario before. Considering both names are native with "Canada" being a French interpretation of a native word (living on in the Montreal Canadiens) while "Ontario" coming from those further west, it could be reconciled the way you suggest namely "Canada" as a province of "Ontario". With the landmass that makes up Atlantis gone, Ontario is bordered on the Atlantic making that area as likely to be discovered by the British first as Quebec. ML4E 23:49, June 20, 2011 (UTC) ::How far east was the civilization which gave us the name Canada? The sense I got is that any tribe east of the line dividing Terranova and Atlantis never existed, and any tribe west of that line has the same territory as OTL. Not sure what I'm basing that on; the only tribe we ever encountered by name is the Blackfoot. Their lands straddle the US/Canada border at the point where Alberta meets Montana: much closer to the East Coast than it is on our map, of course, but it's still way out there to the west so wouldn't likely be directly affected if, say, the Hodenosaunee displaced the Chippewa. Turtle Fan 04:51, June 21, 2011 (UTC) :::My recollection is that it was the tribe(s) the French encountered in the Saint Lawrence River valley which looks like the northern coast of Atlantis on the cover art. The south bank is in Atlantis while the north bank remained part of Terranova. This would certainly affect migration in a real ATL but the way HT plays the game it likely would be the same natives despite the changes in geography. Given that the Dominion of Ontario is a throw-away line or two, HT probably didn't really think it out but it does have a twee symmetry to it: Canada as a political sub-division of Ontario the way Ontario is a sub-division of OTL Canada. ML4E 20:22, June 21, 2011 (UTC) ::::This symmetry is pretty much what I was hoping would emerge when bringing it up. It gives me some joy. Turtle Fan 22:07, June 21, 2011 (UTC) Maybe it was in honor of Canada Day but I had another thought: Maybe Canada is a republic born from Paine's efforts to stir up a Terranovan rebellion at the same time as the Atlantean WfI or from the subsequent support for rebellion that provoked the War of 1812 analog. The westernmost reaches of the OTL former province of Upper Canada are part of the Terranovan landmass and perhaps they never joined Lower Canada/Ontario but remained separate and amenable to Atlantean-inspired revolutionary republicanism. The only reason they'd be likely to draw the colonial map that way would be if they'd seen the OTL map, but frankly HT characters often act as though they have, so I wouldn't be surprised. :Its possible although my recollection of "Scarlet Band" has Helms state (or maybe just imply) that the 1812 analog rebellion attempt was unsuccessful. Its also possible that HT took the parallelism with OTL further and had an equivalent to the Upper and Lower Canada Rebellions of 1837 take place and be more successful. Interesting sidenote: the Canadian volunteers to the Spanish Civil War named their battalion the "Mackenzie-Papineau Battalion" after the leaders of these uprisings the way the Americans named theirs after Lincoln. ML4E 20:56, July 4, 2011 (UTC) Alternately, it might be something like Rhode Island in OTL: A disaffected minority of Ontarians/Lower Canadians/whatever struck out on their own to the hinterlands of their colony to set up a community apart from the majority. Over several generations they diverged politically and socially and ultimately had a very different view of the Atlantean WfI from that of their former compatriots. We know Terranova is balkanized, we know that Atlanteans attempted, with some limited success, to provoke rebellions in British Terranova early in their history before they became isolationist, and we know that the borders of the various Canadian precedents are not neatly reflected on the Terranovan map. I don't know, seems to make sense to me. Turtle Fan 21:14, July 3, 2011 (UTC) Category:Forum